I am just fuming. This topic has got me all riled up in a bunch. Oh, I don't know, maybe because it most likely concerns my generation, people in my age group? The many comments i've read about this topic is actually the fan to my fire.
Its not my intention to mimick Dr. Mahathir's blog style, but i need my thoughts in order
1. I am against pre-marital sex. I do think it showcases loose morals and irresponsible behaviour on both sides.
2.It is not something intrinsic of the East...it is not advocated in any religion i know. Blame the media or whatnot; it is only practised by a certain bunch of 'liberal' Americans (ie, the MTV or any form of protesting bunch which happen to get most of the airtime) and European countries, where ignorant young people compare the age of losing their virginity.... thanks to that UK has the highest incidence of teenage pregnancy. Is that really something to be proud of? Is that really 'modern' & 'progressive'? Sounds like young African tribal brides to me.
3. Most of the idiots i know who 'terlanjur' (i hate this term coz who on earth can 'accidentaly' have sex? its a lot of effort man!) usually i hear they cry after their 1st time coz of shame, 'regret', because 'it just happened' (yeah right...)...then ignore their conscience do it again & again because 'it doesnt matter anymore now that virginity is lost' and 'alang-alang'...and of course, who can deny the pleasures of sex? Now, their initial reaction of self-realization n regret MAY be described as the feeling of 'insaf'...judging by the events that followed, is it really?
4. Having said about 'insaf', lets talk about the caning of women issue. Look, i am not a die-hard fan of caning, neither am I a religious extremist, but what the hell is the big deal? Why on earth are you arguing on basis of women's rights and what nots....Men have been caned for ages and when its time for women to get cained u claim injustice... You want gender equality, you gotta take it as a whole...not 'selectively' when it suits you, you bigot. You get same jobs as the men, same opportunity as the men, same punishment as the men.
5. From what i know Shariah caning is different than the usual caning we see : the graphic images of the buttock skin torn from the many lashes revealing the angry bleeding red flesh underneath. Shariah caning is not like that. For one thing, you have clothes on. Second, it is not meant to cause permanent injury. Third, they dont use big scary rotans. Fourth, they dont ask a huge masked burly man to smack the life outta you
6. If someone is a Muslim, it is only logic to assume that they KNOW the do's & don'ts...so please dont act surprised when authorities say what you do is wrong especially when you are guilty / caught in the act (making out, consuming alcohol, lying through your teeth)...and especially, dont even bother covering it up or say it is unjust. With that, i'd like to express my respect to Kartika, because she did not petition against her punishment; she accepted that she has done wrong and deserves her sentence. It shows she is not ignorant, and that she is a woman who has self-respect.
7. Having said that, i think it is pointless for these 'raids' by Jabatan Agama Islam.... There are a lot more pressing issues to be dealth with, like ajaran sesat, high corruption, public education, reforming the eduation of Islam for the benefit of younger generations. Moral/akhlak issues are between a person and his/her immediate environment....their family, friends, teachers. It all starts from waaay back when
8. I am an advocate of educating & councelling. As i've said, premarital sex or casual sex or extramarital sex is all a reflection of loose morals...which begs the question of their upbringing. Parents should really educate their kids about the true value of sex...it is incredibly sad to see people being punished for their natural God-given urges. Or are the parents themselves behaving like reckless teenagers in heat, with their own porn stash and extra-marital affairs?
I guess that's sufficient for my 'lepas geram'. Let's all work & pray for a better future.
Office Decor Update & Making Slime | Tanya Burr
6 years ago
Nadia brought me here through her FB acc. :P
ReplyDeleteAwesome lepas geram. For a while there I felt guilty of joining the 'riuh rendah' group who are againts those canings.
The only Q I had to the peeps out there is why the sudden hoo-hah of caning and what nots. Bising betuk lol.
It is interesting to note, that in many places, the act of a woman writing in a blog such as this is considered loose morals. In fact, you're not supposed to come out of the house un-chaperoned. And this is supposedly based on Islamic principles.
ReplyDeleteIn a lot of places, Dima, you would be caned for having loose morals.
At the end of the day, 'loose morals' is subjective. Sure, you can argue that pre-marital sex is clearly against religion. But someone else will argue that not covering your face is also against religion. Where does the buck stop? And what right do we have to enforce morality upon other people? Are we so perfect?
Besides, the abrahamic religions believe in one God, who will pass judgement upon our sins, no? So at the end of the day, these people will be judged by the Almighty, and no judgement or punishment is fairer than His. So what right do you have to step in his shoes?
Let ye without sin cast the first stone.
--Dhanen Mahes
Mr Dhanen,
ReplyDeletei'm speaking within the frame of islamic practise in Malaysia...and of course, this blog is just my personal opinion
yes, loose morals is subjective but where do we draw the line, reasonably? easiest way is through culture n religion...which differs with geography. or is it that a permissive culture the only way to go? if suddenly in Malaysia it becomes unacceptable for someone like me to write a blog like this, then so be it, i shall be caned.
True, all judgements should come from God, and He has said many times that repentance is always the best, which is why i believe in education & councelling. The 'vigilantes' that hunt these people down...are they without sin themselves to be handing out the punishment? nobody really gave them the power.
putting that aside, what i really am trying to say is berani buat berani tanggung, and dont act ignorant or cover it up.
Agree with you dima!!!! whats with the noise, huh.
ReplyDeletethe noise : probably just another political ploy to distract the rakyat's focus off Anwar's trial, UMNO, Najib, other political crap.....
ReplyDeleteBut, since the noise has been made, might as well make use of it :-)
I feel ya dima. Im fuming too! Esp. since this issue concerns my rights as an individual, citizen of the country. I guess I will reply to ur comments numerically as well
ReplyDelete1) I’m a sexually active woman, who strongly believes that safe sex between two consensual individual a personal choice , not a crime punishable by law or the state. Morality is a subjected to a person’s interpretations, and personal opinions or ‘feelings’ shouldn’t be passed or legislated as law.
2) Sex or premarital sex of course not ‘advocated’ in any religions, but to say that it is alien and Western? Come on Dima, you can do better than that! People from all over the world and across time been doing it. Actually, organized religion and the concept of ‘marriage’ is something fairly new and alien. Even after the arrival of religion, people still do it lah. Look up Moghul emperors and their Harem. Now lets get back to facts….teenage pregnancy…what’s your problem with teenage pregnancy? Is it because it showcases “loose morals” or izzit because these youths don’t know what they got themselves into, throwing away their future etc. Because if it’s the latter, then perhaps you should look at Islamic countries that allows children as young as 7-9 yrs to marry. Most of give birth to stillborns , and die suffering infections etc. Btw the country with the lowest rate of teenage pregnancy is Not a country which canes the women for premarital sex, its Netherlands, the secular spawn of the devil-country.
3) Ok im assuming you’re just fuming off your hatred and prejudice against people who are sexually active here….yes, sex is complicated esp when religion, morality is constantly shoved in one’s face, so even when one makes a conscious choice to have sex before marriage, the feeling of guilt is common after all the years of social/religious conditioning. Maybe they memang insaf, maybe not.
4) Frankly, I went completely wtf after reading this one. You’re making a joke out of all the time (years and generations) and energy that gender activists sacrifice for the fundamental rights and freedom that we enjoy today. Corporal punishment is against human rights, tak kira if you’re a man or a woman. And punishing people for their personal choices that will not affect you or anyone else bt themselves is UNACCEPTABLE. (Btw mini reality check : I don’t know what planet ure living in, but women still don’t enjoy the same jobs and opportunity as men. )
5) Comparing it with civil caning will not justify syariah caning. Does not make any better, more humane, holier, religious. Morever, what exactly is the basis for corporal punishment in the shariah criminal law? Who came up with it? Why does it differ in different states? I watched the interview and some of the women belives that it will ‘mengurangkan the punishment di akhirat” Is this in Quran?
6) Im confused. You’re contradicting yourself. You feel that there are more pressing issues but at the same time, agree with the caning? Your blind faith in the current syariah systems baffles me.
7) Parents can educate their children all the want, but there will come a point where the children will make important choices like sex on their own. People are people, you can brainwash them all you want with religion, philosophy and ideology but when it comes to primal, biological instinct like sex, all is gone babe! If you want children that follows your exact beliefs, ideology and interpretation of morality, then go clone yourself instead
oh i missed out number 6!!
ReplyDeleteumm...i dont remember ever agreeing to be under the jurisdiction of the syariah. so if i ever get caught doing whatever it is that i wana do,i will fight!
1) you are a sexually active woman.it was your choice. clap, clap, clap, bravo, good for you. just dont go and say it is accepted, warranted,'halal' or say that what you are doing has or has no sin. that's for God and your conscience to decide. Same goes for alcohol, rasuah, cheating, lying etc.
ReplyDelete2) "what’s your problem with teenage pregnancy? Is it because it showcases “loose morals” or izzit because these youths don’t know what they got themselves into, throwing away their future etc"
Which is exactly why they shouldn't be having sex anyway : they are obviously not ready! Their pubescent, at the mercy of hormones, don't tell me it is wrong to say sexual functioning is a blessing & responsibility so wait until you are ready for a proper commitment (and by commitment, as a Muslim, i mean marriage). loose morals is subjective. i for one consider ignorance & short-sightedness as poor morals; or at least the cause of poor morals.
3)I don't know where you live, but i live in Malaysia where 70% of my class in medical school are women and even you are a graduate...we have women ministers, organization, doctors, lawyers, teachers, engineers... my own mother & grandmother are successful, independent women so how can you say women don't have the same rights? if they instead decide to duduk rumah jaga anak, its their choice. Like i've said, i'm talking about Malaysia. Its not perfect, but it exists & its evolving.
4) i'm not debating if corporal punishment is right or wrong; that's a different issue entirely. and so is human rights. what i'm saying is whatever applies to the men, will apply to the women as well, even more so if you want to be treated equally. for example; statutory rape, where its usually the man who gets incarcerated. what about the woman? where is the gender equality in that? gender equality works both ways.
5) what is said in the Quran is that some sins are punished on earth, others in akhirat.Hadith says there are unforgivable sins, there are forgivable sins, and there are sins absolved in daily life which refer to sins between man. where this whole caning system came in, i dont know yet : i'm only at surah al-baqarah in the tafsir, and only several chapters into my book of hadith (note : i am reading it because even I want to find the discrepancy esp with regards to the seemingly sexist & repressive laws). To paraphrase you : you blind objections baffle me
6)like i said, i'm not a die-hard fan of caning, but apparently that it the punishment. if the punishment is community service, i'd be supporting it too. i dont make laws/punishments, i am just a supporter of proper enforcement. why they chose this particular thing to be enforced? beats me.
ReplyDelete7)before resources are decidedly spent on moral policing, this is where i believe there are more important issues to deal with. so NO, i am not contradicting myself.
8)social norms & belief systems are marks of civilization (x percaya, bukak buku sejarah). being 'married', is not new. the ceremonies & celebrations are. with reference to Islam, married means its official & people know it, with witnesses & all to say these 2 are together, it is recognized, and dont try hook up with them. It is the current social construct of marriage(mortgage responsibilities, in-laws, children, etc) that somehow make the whole idea 'unpalatable' to some. Moghul & Chinese emperors, pharoahs, Raja dulu2 all have gundiks/concubines/harem girls...everyone knows that. Is it still acceptable now? No. Look at Bill Clinton and his Miss Lewinski.
9) yes, children will choose how they live their own lives, but it is essential that they are brought up well, encouraged, loved, disciplined & educated. to what extent; is personal territory. being too permissive is neglect, being too controlling is oppressive. But it is a good start that the child can tell right from wrong, think for themselves and not decide out of impulse and ignorance. morality? instinct? we are all capable of control.
Since when is morals dictated by geography? That would mean that slavery back in the 70's in the States is ok, simply because it was common. Or perhaps even genocide permissible in Germany back when Hitler was in command.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, this is a clear case of you choosing and bending the current norms and what is accepted as decent according to your personal views. Conforming your belief in your religion according to your convenience. If you happened to wear baju kurungs all the time, you'd probably say that tight jeans and tight tops are unacceptable. Assuming your argument is true about morals being subjective according to geography, it still falls short cos even WITHIN Malaysia, there are too many variants.
I second Dhanen Mahes and Nadia, even though I'm not sexually active myself, because I can see the clear differences between one's own beliefs and IMPOSING it upon others. That has to stop. If people are carrying on things which couldn't possibly harm others, and they believe in the whole concept of it all (2 consenting adults above the age of 16/18), and we believe its wrong, its fine. So long as we don't try to punish them for not conforming. Stop pushing your beliefs upon others. Malaysia is fast becoming a state which I'm embarrassed to be associated with primarily because of instances like this. There were days in Malaysia, long gone, when people weren't being judged for what they wore, or what they did. Just watch a P.Ramlee movie to know what I'm referring to. We should be moving forward, not backward.
its not morals that differ with geography, its culture. and yes, it has many variants. which is any not everything suits everywhere.
ReplyDeleteis it imposing so say what i think is right or wrong, in my own blog? never mind that. whatever that goes on between 2 consenting adults, behind closed doors is not public business; which is why i am against the whole 'raids'. everyone is entitled to their privacy. but because this unfortunate incident has become public, i am laying my opinions on the issue of their accountability and 'punishment'. so i guess i apologise for emphasising accountability.
i admit the delivery of my post was emotional, that's y i say its 'lepas geram'. as to 'bending' and 'confirming'...and you mention tight tops & jeans...well, current interpretation says clothes have to be loose & not figure hugging. its plain to see what type of clothes i wear, and if even that needs to be punished, then i'm guilty! the question is, why are they focusing on the petty things? and who hired/certified these 'moral police' anyway? God?
premarital/extramarital/casual sex is an act that i associate with loose morals...does that make him/her a bad person? does that mean they cannot succeed in life? does that mean they have to be shunned? hell no. it is one part of a person, not the entire individual. i condemn the act, not the individual.
OK. that's the last i have to say about the topic. -End-
From Nabilah Azman
ReplyDeletevia Facebook,Feb 19th 2010
omg dima. finally i met someone who is just as angry as i am. yesterday i was fuming like hell as well sbb my non muslim friend kinda thot caning was a bit over the edge. it is rather difficult to explain to a non muslim on syariah and faith and stuff, but for a muslim to be arguing with you is rather pathetic coz they should know better than that... See more. and to confess your sinful acts in the public, boy oh boy, she must not have any shame in this world already. if every "modern" muslim has the same mind as her, memang lingkup habis la dunia ini. oh dima, what is this world coming to now huh?
From Naquira Rafi
ReplyDeletevia Facebook, Feb 19th 2010
dunia mmg dah dekat nak qiamat. I suggest a good read would be undang2 jenayah islam by paizah ismail. and yeah the holy quran n the hadith. that would b facts on how shariah law is and how it should operate. then formulate ur point of view.. I consider myself a modern muslim too, but I would abide by what is intended by Allah. so if I should be... See more killed for killing, then by all means. sape suro buat kalau x brani tanggung? and bout shariah jurisdiction in malaysia, gi bukak federal constitution read the 9th sched list 2. itz there. kalau x puas hati ok, make a motion to amend the consti la. while we r at it, amend the consti to fit my right to kill lah. hahahahaha
From Nadia Ali
ReplyDeletevia Facebook, Feb 19th 2010
nabilla azman, im assuming you're talking about me. i dont see myself as a 'modern' muslim, just so u know. but i do know alot of girls who consider themselves practicing Muslims, pakai tudung etc. and are sexually active. I dont think the world will come to an end just because they decide to have sex. everyone's been doing it since the beginning ... See moreof time, and we're still here. Least of your worry.
Naquira- thanks for you suggestion, we really do need to ammend the constitution...most importantly the syariah laws. 6 strokes of caning, is it really what God intended? Where exactly in the Quran does it say 6 strokes, or how much fine one must pay or the prison terms? Obviously someone came up with this idea. So why are we not allowed to question it?
(Imma try to make this short, because I don’t have access to the internet for the weekend)
ReplyDeleteI should make it clear that I think the syariah is an unjust system, especially to women and that I cringe to the thought that im subjected to those laws against my will. Having said that, I do not care of what others think of the choices that ive made pertaining my personal life. I cant possibly let others decide for me what kind of person I should be. Let alone, the government.
The three women who were caned, they accepted they’re punishment, no questions asked. But really will caning make their lives any better? Now the whole knows that they have illegitimate children. Will theyre sex partners be caned as well? Will the Islamic court give these women money or allowance to raise the children? Or does it just stop at the caning part?
You’ve clearly made your choice, Islam is the way to go. But for many others who are Muslim ‘by law’, especially those who choose to lead alternative lifestyles, are not given the space to fight for they’re rights. Since there is no such thing as religious freedom in this country, we’re stuck, and we can’t do anything about it. This is unjust. Maybe you cant see it, because you’re on the greener side of the fence.
Lastly, you made it clear that u do not agree with my personal choices. But remember Dima, there is a clear difference between not agreeing with the choices your friends make/ the ideologies that the subscribe to etc AND advocating a violent, demeaning punishment for them just because you feel that it is wrong.
From Naquira Rafi
ReplyDeletevia Facebook, Feb 19th 2010
actly prophet muhammad carried out the rejam sampai mati punishment kalau zina lepas ihsan. 6 strokes tu dah mitigation dh le kan?
From Nabilah Azman
ReplyDeletevia Facebook, Feb 19th 2010
well i guess those muslims wearing tudungs and are happily berzina are deluded for considering themselves as practicing muslims. tapi nadia, kenapa awak masih mahu menegakkan benang yang basah? a sin will always remain a sin. that is being clearly stated in the Quran. "Nor come near to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the ... See moreroad (to other evils)" (Quran 17:32).
Least of my worry? It is the biggest of my worry seeing how everyone seems to be forgetting that dunia is temporary and akhirat is permanent. We are here on this earth to remind each other just how bad it is it would be in akhirat later (Quran 51:55). Well we've tried anyway. Muhasabahlah balik tujuan kita hidup di muka bumi ini(51:56 and 3:104). After all, one of these days we are going to die but are we ready yet to meet Allah with our current state of iman?
From Nadia Ali
ReplyDeletevia Facebook, Feb 19th 2010
is that all religious peeps are worried about? dying, and ending up in hell? so everything you do in this world revolves around keeping yourself away from hell? thats really selfish
Yes, its true, sin will always remain a sin. but who makes the decision of the punishments that comes from these sins? who decides the degree of the sins? Is drinking beer as sinful as selling your wife into prostitution? According to the Pahang Syariah laws, it is..6 strokes of rotan and some fine. Corruption is also a sin, but what's the syariah punishment for that?
Just to be clear, im against any form of regulation of ppl's private lives. The current caning case will only pave way for the government to kepo with everything else...whats next,caning women for not wearing tudung? (since some ppl will say its a sin for women to not cover their hair)
I wholeheartedly with Nadia.
ReplyDeleteYou go girl - if only we have more Nadia in this country.
Several official institutions in democratic countries, such as the European Court of Human Rights, argue that Sharia is incompatible with a democratic state. These incompatibilities have been clarified in several legal disputes.
ReplyDeleteIn 1998 the Constitutional Court of Turkey banned and dissolved Turkey's Refah Party on the grounds that the "rules of sharia", which Refah sought to introduce, "were incompatible with the democratic regime," stating that "Democracy is the antithesis of sharia." On appeal by Refah the European Court of Human Rights determined that "sharia is incompatible with the fundamental principles of democracy".Refah's sharia based notion of a "plurality of legal systems, grounded on religion" was ruled to contravene the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms. It was determined that it would "do away with the State's role as the guarantor of individual rights and freedoms" and "infringe the principle of non-discrimination between individuals as regards their enjoyment of public freedoms, which is one of the fundamental principles of democracy". It was further ruled that, according to Christian Moe:
"[T]he Court considers that sharia, which faithfully reflects the dogmas and divine rules laid down by religion, is stable and invariable. Principles such as pluralism in the political sphere or the constant evolution of public freedoms have no place in it. [...] It is difficult to declare one's respect for democracy and human rights while at the same time supporting a regime based on sharia, which clearly diverges from Convention values, particularly with regard to its criminal law and criminal procedure, its rules on the legal status of women and the way it intervenes in all spheres of private and public life in accordance with religious precepts."
Sums up what Nadia has been saying...
Sorry if i am opening a topic which has been closed for a while back, but I just came across this and I feel responsible to share what I know with other people.
ReplyDeleteI have to firstly say that I am not a very religious person. I was in Cambridge and am now in london and I have been clubbing a couple of times, which I am not very proud of. Hijrah is a process not a destination, I say!! Suffice to say that I am not a qualified person to take religious advice from, what i am going to quote is from the quran. Like Dima, I started reading the tafsir because with all the talk from various people, it is hard to know what is haq and what is batil. and one thing I learnt from my sekolah agama and mrsm days is that when in doubt, go back to basics and check the quran.
Anyhow, a quick googling and a quick skim through my tafsir got me to three ayats which basically says that zina is frowned upon, and I think that although arguing that one has a right to be free and easy in this current liberal world, it is important that we are still muslims who need to adhere to the core of our religion which is al-quran. This is also why I feel the need to write it out because I feel that some people may have forgotten that Islam is not just about headscarves, praying, ramadhan and eid. Islam is beautiful and it is sometime islam's own ummah who are tarnishing it.
enough of rambling. the three ayats are:
1) Surah al-isra (#17), ayat 32:
"dan janganlah kamu mendekati zina; sesungguhnya zina itu adalah suatu perbuatan yang keji dan suatu jalan yang buruk."
2) Surah al-furqan (#25) ayat 68-69
"dan orang yang tidak mempersekutukan Allah SWT dengan sembahan lain dan tidak membunuh orang yang diharamkan Allah kecuali dengan alasan yang benar dan tidak berzina; dan barangsiapa melakukan demikian itu, nescaya dia mendapat hukuman yang berat. (Yakni) akan dilipatgandakan azab untuknya pada hari kiamat dan dia kekal dalam azab itu dalam keadaan terhina."
3) Surah an-nur (#23) ayat 2 (this tells the hukum for people who berzina):
"Penzina perempuan dan penzina lelaki, sebatlah masing-masing daripada keduanya, seratus kali dan janganlah rasa belas kasihan kepada keduanya yang mencegah kamu untuk (menjalankan) agama (hukum) Allah, juka kamu beriman kepada Allah dan hari kemudian; dan hendaklah (pelaksanaan) hukuman mereka disaksikan sebahagian orang yang beriman."
but all isn't grim in the quran.
4) Surah Al-zumar (#39) ayat 53
"katakanlah: 'wahai hamba-hambaKu yang melampaui batas terhadap diri mereka sendiri! Janganlah kamu berputus asa daripada rahmat Allah. Sesungguhnya Allah mengampunkan dosa-dosa semuanya. Sesungguhnya, Dialah Yang Maha Pengampun, Lagi Maha Penyayang.' "
Religious people are not just concerned about akhirat. In history (i can't quote the names) we have lots of religious beings who were also successful scientists. Embracing the religion does not mean that one does not strive for the best.
ReplyDeleteI did my pre-clinicals in Cambridge, and we had tahfiz studying to be a doctor there. In my cohort, the muslims do really well, we had a girl who was just so timid and nice and she got first class for all her years there. She withheld temptation, and worked hard and reaped the rewards from Allah SWT.
Again, I say that I am not a nice and not very religious. But I think some people need to be reminded that being a muslim ties them to the rules in the Quran. Who cares if the outside world says that the Syariah law is not compatible with democracy. The point is, we are muslims. and if you don't believe hadith sahih or you don't believe in being told my HUMAN BEINGS that you are not supposed to do stuff, you should at least believe the Quran which is the fundamentals of Islam.
I live in the UK and temptations are always there. I have been out with friends and when they drink, I have wondered what it tastes like. But I know that I am bound by my religion, by my decision to stay a muslim and also my gratitude to be born a muslim. I abstained, and I think to an extent, the "Westerners" respect you for having good morals, and also for being able to withstand temptations.
Just my two cents. Salam!
And happy rest of ramadhan and eid mubarak!! :D :D